SPEAKER_00: 0:01

If you aren't already on the wait list for the next cohort of K to R Essentials, head to our website to sign up so that you can be the first to hear all the details about the program and to get your questions answered. You can do that at Sarah Dopen.co slash K2R. That's S-A-R-A-H-D-O-B-S-O-N. Today's episode is a conversation with a recent K to R Essentials graduate. These episodes are really special. They're a little longer than a typical episode you'll hear from me, and of course you'll get to hear directly from a former student about their experience in the program. The reason I love these conversations so much, aside from getting to chat with a graduate, is because it's one thing to hear me talk about the perspectives and tools that I teach inside KDR Essentials, but it's another thing entirely to hear someone who's applied those tools and perspectives in their own career and to hear what happened when they did. Here's our conversation. Welcome, welcome. Can you introduce yourself and tell us your pronouns and a little bit about your area of research?

SPEAKER_01: 1:06

Sure. My name is Sunny. Uh Honey Lynn. I'm an assistant professor at the Washington University in St. Louis. I use GMP pronouns. And my research looks at uh healthcare policy and payment uh incentives and how it impacts healthcare quality um kind of broadly, kind of diving deep into different areas of that.

SPEAKER_00: 1:32

Can you talk a little bit about how you got into that area of research? What drew you to it? Sure.

SPEAKER_01: 1:39

Um, so I I didn't know I wanted to go into research uh when I was a kid. Uh I didn't know what this field was. My parents are immigrants. Um, and to them, like you could be a doctor or an engineer. Um so I started down the route of like the route of like engineering with the eye of maybe going into medicine one day. Um, and I took a class in a social policy school at my university. And then one day I was like, I don't want to do this engineering thing anymore. Um, I wanted to do policy because it just felt like it was that same mindset, but more impact and more people-minded. And I also realized that I'm very introverted and the idea of interacting with people every day was exhausting. So um, yeah, I kind of fell into this space.

SPEAKER_00: 2:28

Cool. And so can you tell us a little bit about your K award journey and what that has been like in, you know, in relation to the research that you're doing, but just more broadly kind of from a professional perspective?

SPEAKER_01: 2:42

For sure. Um, so my my research really agenda was very much influenced by uh this job that I had out of college where I worked at an FQHC, uh the Federally Qualified Health Center in Chicago. And it was this wonderful place that was providing care for underinsured folks, uninsured folks, um, a lot of uh people who just didn't have a lot of means, but they provided really super high quality care. Um and I just loved that idea of being there to to really lift other people up. Um, and that and actually, I guess I say this, I say this a lot as the as the uh daughter of immigrants, I am just very fully aware that that the line between me and some of the folks that our safety net serves is so thin. Um and so it very much became like a self-preservation thing. Like we need to take care of the people who don't have a lot, because that could be us, and that's what we need to value in our society. Um and so my my work with the K kind of uh touched on uh a very vulnerable subpopulation of folks, older adults who have dementia, and particularly looking at racial inequities and the way that care is delivered to these folks in the emergency department, um, because the emergency department care is not always of the highest quality. Like there's a lot of other stuff going on, and it's just a very, very vulnerable time in these folks' lives. Um, and so my my K was to really look at how can we uh improve quality of care. But the very first aim was like, let's document some of these inequities in the way that we deliver care.

SPEAKER_00: 4:17

Yeah, because I'm sure that there is not a lot of sort of baseline data about that population to even understand the scope of the problem starting out, right?

SPEAKER_01: 4:30

Yeah, yeah. So the work in the ED is, I mean, this it's just ED doctors are the best, but they also have so much going on that we have to be experts in everything. Um, and so there is a lot of documentation of racial inequities in the ED, there's a lot of documentation of racial inequity in Alzheimer's. Um, but for me, it's the first study that that I could see that really tried to look at both. And then I targeted a very specific intervention to help. So my one of my research agendas is looking at the use of data to help improve care.

SPEAKER_00: 5:01

And so when you think back to earlier this year and some of the maybe challenges you were encountering as you were considering joining a program like K to R Centrals, like where were you at with that stuff? And what what ultimately uh led you to to get support with some of the challenges you were facing?

SPEAKER_01: 5:28

Yeah, I don't remember how I found you, but I have been subscribed to your email list for years. Um and I think I was, you know, I was just trying to figure out like what does my research career look like? And I was in a a primarily teaching institution for a while. And I I thought at that moment, like, I just really want to go all in on research, I want to figure out how to do this. Uh, because that's what I went and got my PhD for. Like, that's why I'm in this career. Um, so I think at the time I was just looking for anything I could find in terms of like a resource to help me write a grant because I I didn't really know what I was doing. Um, and that idea of having something that not only helps you write the R, which is is my career kind of that's that's what my boss wants me to do, right? Get the R. Uh, but that was really focused on people like Dean, who you know maybe can do well enough to get a K, but then it's just like, well, what's the next step? And that kind of confidence building. And I love the idea of this smaller group of people um working on it together, which is really kind of that accountability and that relatability. And um, I'm surrounded by really accomplished people here at this institution, and a lot of them might have had parents who are academics or might be medical doctors. And it's a very different path for them. And so I love that idea of having this group of people who who are facing similar challenges, be it internal or external, as as I was.

SPEAKER_00: 6:54

And so what specifically were you hoping that this program could help you accomplish? Do you remember? Oh gosh.

SPEAKER_01: 7:05

Um It was it was a combination of just like the how-to. Um, but like, and honestly, there's so many different, you know, you could Google it and you could find all sorts of advice on like how to write an R. Um, but it was it was that community, I think, that really hugs me. And I think when we met to talk about the program, like that was what you were emphasizing as well. And I was like, great, that's like a moment. This is wonderful. Um yeah, and I think I don't know. Um I I had I am involved in some other faculty development programs, and that really seems to be the thing that helps people kind of get over these humps in their career is like working with other people who are in similar stages and kind of talking through some of those shared challenges. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 7:53

Well, you mentioned earlier that you consider yourself to be an introvert. And so I'm curious how that uh squares with this desire to be part of a community because I, you know, I I consider myself to be an introvert also. And I for a long time was very skeptical of sort of group group activities or like being part of a community that that had a you know a shared objective just because I thought like I'm not gonna fit in here, like I'm not how what am I gonna contribute to this? And so I would kind of talk myself out of those opportunities until I actually joined one and was like, oh my gosh, this is so this is so helpful. And the people are so wonderful. Like I just I find that it was it was a lot of my own anxiety around like just being an introvert and not wanting to participate in that way. And so I yeah, I wonder, I wonder what it's like for you.

SPEAKER_01: 8:54

Yeah, absolutely. That's a that's a really good question. Uh what was I gonna say? It's um like I know in my head I need a community, and I think especially since the past few years have happened and moving around a lot, I know I'm not unique in that, and um, and also my own background. Like I've always felt like I never belonged to any group. Um, so as I became an adult, now I had my own kid, it's like, oh, like we really do need people around us, and it's terrifying. Um, and I have to selectively engage. Um, but I think I think what you've created really is a safe space and that all those barriers to all of those things that come up for me when I'm in spaces that I feel like I don't belong, which is pretty much everywhere. Um, I can kind of suspend all that and really engage and and or at least listen in on what other people are doing.

SPEAKER_00: 9:51

And so how like let's let's just stay on the the community topic for for a little while longer. Like how how did you find your experience in the community?

SPEAKER_01: 10:03

It was it was really great. Like there were people who I would see as my seniors in that group, um, maybe were on their fourth or fifth year of their K, uh, and folks who had either just gotten or were postdocs or something. Um and I think we were at a very special time because I knew I wasn't unique in that other people were being impacted by changes in federal policy. So I was already very nervous about you know my research agenda coming in. And actually, as you know, in the middle of the program, my K was canceled, but but the outpouring of support that came out um was was really touching. And I think knowing that other people had been through it was really helpful and that they were still figuring it out and were kind of still going. And I think that was what I felt was the big difference between like me and some of my colleagues here that I would talk to. That, you know, at that point people were like, well, you know what, this is just a job. I just gotta get through this, I'm gonna find meaning elsewhere. Of course, like this is my life. Like we a lot of us choose this career because we care to be free and having to fragment ourselves for the sake of survival was really hard. Um so I was able to kind of like the very first week we talk about like what is your mission? Like, why are you doing this?

SPEAKER_00: 11:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 11:16

To like center yourself in that without getting too caught up in the in the how and the what if.

SPEAKER_00: 11:24

Yeah, and and that's such an important place to start is to really exactly as you said, Sonny, to separate the the how and the what if from the from the why, like, and just get really solid on no, this is what I'm here to do. This is what matters to me, this is part of who I am. And there are um, let's say, danger to to kind of going all in on that, right? Because of everything you talked about in terms of federal policy changes and just even prior to this year, the you know, the the pre-existing challenges to to getting research funded in this domain, right? Like it's never been easy to do health equity research, right? It's like it's way more difficult now, of course, but it's never just been like, oh, write a grant and and they'll hand over, you know, hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars, right? Like it's always been tricky, but really grounding yourself in the in the in the purpose and the impact that you want to have keeps keeps those fires burning when things get really difficult. And that's exactly that's exactly why we start there.

SPEAKER_01: 12:43

Yeah. And I think I mean that that whole idea of the K is you're selling yourself, right? Yeah. I think that's something that you tell not just in the K, but in your emotions and your career. Like, and you have to be confident in yourself before you can start learning these things. And that was actually one thing I've really struggled with in my career is like, well, I just want to do what gets funded. Um, but I also deeply care about this. But I also just did what gets funded. And I think it's come up with my mentors of like, well, what do you really want to do? And I always have a hard time articulating it because in the back of my head, I'm like, well, that's not what they want to hear. What do they want to hear? And and I think, I don't know, that that recentering of that having the confidence to say, no, this is important. Um, and this is why you should care. And I don't know, not always having to fragment yourself in that way as well.

SPEAKER_00: 13:34

Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, and just focusing on the yeah, the the impact rather than how you're gonna how you're gonna achieve it. That part comes later and does require creativity and uh resourcefulness. But if if you're starting from that position of this is what I care about, this is my unique lens that I bring, these are the skills and the experiences that I bring to this work, that is what can carry you towards the curiosity and the resourcefulness that you need to build the kind of program of research that is going to be really meaningful to you. And ultimately that comes down to I think really just understanding that like you are creating your own metrics of success. We're not worried about what the institution says you need to do to be successful. It's really about, well, what matters to me and what's gonna be meaningful to me, you know, when I retire from this job, what am I gonna care that I accomplished? Yeah, yeah, I just think that's that's a great place to start. And I mean, uh you you uh were in a uh a cohort that uh experienced I, you know, the the brunt of the challenges of 2025. And it's yeah, it's uh it's good to hear that the community did um provide some comfort and encouragement during a really challenging time. Can you talk about where things are at for you now? For sure.

SPEAKER_01: 15:30

Um yeah, especially partly why I'm meeting in a cafe, uh has had to take on uh teaching. So I'm I'm a research track faculty, like 95% soft money. Um, but when my K was kind of canceled a month after it was supposed to be renewed, I was kind of scrambling to find coverage. So I am uh teaching, which is actually really great because I'm you know, meeting students who are um inspired, you know, pursuing degrees for reasons beyond just money. No one goes into public well for money. Um and so that's been kind of a lovely refreshing break. Um I'm free-submitted my K and I'm looking for foundation funding. So there's been a couple of private foundations looking um to fund grants that were explicitly canceled. Um, and so that has been somewhat encouraging as well.

SPEAKER_00: 16:22

Good. And when you think back to your time in the program, was there anything that you learned that you didn't realize you needed to learn?

SPEAKER_01: 16:33

You know, there's a lot of like, do what I say, not what I do going on in my life right now. And I I remember this very explicit moment. I think we were on a call with the group and it was like, I don't know, a couple weeks after my case came forward, and I was like, um, like I can't get anything done. I just can't um I guess sit down and do it. I have the time, I protect my time, I'm following all the rules to when I actually sit down to do the work. It's like nothing is nothing is happening. And I think you had said, you know, you need to you need to feel the grief. You need to take the time. Like, have you actually taken the time to grief what you lost? And it wasn't just the funding, it was this whole, you know, validation of my life's work up to this point. Um so I think you you know, we we set up the time and chat, and it was just this like I was at a conference, you're like, you know, just just turn off your phone, like close the door, turn off the lights, whatever. Just like put on a sad movie and I, and and I did that, and you know, after the movie ended at like six o'clock, I was like, all right, I'm gonna go write this paper. And it was just like that's all I needed to watch a sad movie. But yeah, I know what like I tell my kid all the time, emotions are good, we need to feel our emotions even if they're bad, but it's really hard because we don't treat ourselves to do that, right? Like we call them that for a reason. When he feels sad, I offer him candy. Like that's not, you know, I don't talk to him about it. So yeah, I think that was the piece that I really, really valued and appreciated.

SPEAKER_00: 18:08

Yeah. Well, and I think too, it's um emotions are really discouraged in academic spaces, right? Like, like we're prized for being cerebral uh and uh and almost like not having a body, right? And so to actually take the time to let those feelings move through, you realize it's just like it's like the weather. It these big feelings come and then they pass, but but the but resisting them is what creates the additional uh struggle. And if and if you just give yourself the the space to to grieve, as you said, it um it can really help.

SPEAKER_01: 18:57

Yeah. And I think that was, you know, it's always been a challenge. Is is you go a lot of folks who end up with PhDs, right? We're perfectionists. We are very high performing, we're praised for doing well, right? And so we have this idea that we're supposed to have all the answers. Um, and we take things very personally. And and I think even in my PhD at some point, my advisor was like, you need to ask more questions. And I was like, I I don't feel comfortable doing that. And and it was a lot of like, why? Well, like curiosity isn't the thing that was um celebrated in that opinion, right? Like perform this up, you do well, you you figure out what you need to do when you do it, you don't ask questions. And um that's something I need to I'm still working on or trying to get my students at least to work out. Just ask the question, even if it feels dumb.

SPEAKER_00: 19:46

Well, and that's you know, that's part of the challenge of the the K-2R transition, right? Because in a lot of ways, the K is about checking those boxes and just doing what you need to do to get yourself that career development award. But um once you're in that place where you have to think about that next stage of, you know, what do I want to do with my research career and how do I want to build this thing, there is no roadmap, particularly for people who are doing research that hasn't gotten a lot of attention or doesn't have a lot of the the resources that that other areas do, right? So primarily health equity research, you are you're having to carve your own path. And so you don't have necessarily an example of how to how to go about it. And so if there is no checklist, what do you what do you do? You have to ask questions, you have to figure it out for yourself. And like you said, if you're not accustomed to doing that, it adds this extra layer of stress and challenge and difficulty to the process.

SPEAKER_01: 21:06

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And I and that's one thing I think about think about a lot. You know, I found myself in this position and I look around, I'm like, well, who are my role models? And I don't have as many as I would like, you know, who either look like me or have my degrees or want to and and I will say I do consider myself fairly lucky and privileged to have a position right now. And I know a lot of folks who can't pivot and can't do what they want to do full soft. That that PC is kind of hard to come to terms with. Um right. So like doing what even I can in my own position to be able to call attention to the work. Yeah, all right, getting off topic, but uh no, I don't think it's off topic at all.

SPEAKER_00: 21:51

This is, you know, this is part of what we are part of this professional transition, right? Is figuring out where you want to go in your career. In academia, a lot of that is based on role modeling, right? So like who do who do I want my whose career do I want to have? Um and and you and there are sort of standard rule books for um for some people, um, and we know we know who those people are, right? But um for people who uh are coming into academia or coming into the system that wasn't really designed for them, they don't necessarily have those role models um to look towards. And so building something of your own and and creating something that is meaningful uh for you and creating your own version of success can be really daunting. Yeah, it's entirely on topic. Thanks. Yeah.

unknown: 23:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 23:07

Sunny, is there anything else that we haven't talked about today that you want to make sure that we cover? It's a good question.

SPEAKER_01: 23:16

Um, I don't know. I think I just you know we want to say thanks. Um I get I get your emails and um they very timely in terms of like what I'm thinking about right now is like what is the next step? Like you know, acknowledging that things are really weird right now, but also like how can we figure out what what freedom we have within the constraints that are put on us. And I think that pieces a lot of like intellectual but also emotional lift of me getting to that point, knowing that I'm not doing it on my own is really, really, really helpful. Um yeah, I I don't think I know that the statistics on like people who end up not continuing after a K are pretty um scary. Um and I think we take for granted in a lot of these big institutions that that's just a given. Um, especially for folks who like me. Like my parents think I'm a medical doctor. They don't really know what I do, right? And so I don't have those kind of resources or even the internal resource to like keep going sometimes. And I'm finding that that's kind of my biggest limiting factor is just like the confidence to know that I could do this. Um and not necessarily the cognitive stuff. Um so yeah, it could be you're you're just like you understand that, and that's really refreshing that I don't have to come into these conversations and have to explain why, you know, I'm emotionally down today. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 24:49

Well, I just want to say that you are doing it. Right? Like you are whatever um, however you feel about your level of confidence, you are doing it under extraordinarily difficult circumstances at the moment. And um and for you and and anybody else in a similar position, what I want most is for you to acknowledge how much strength that requires. And I wish that you didn't have to exhibit that kind of strength. Um but for you to be where you are and to be navigating all of this chaos is remarkable, really.

SPEAKER_01: 25:44

Thank you. I will put a chin on that. I will tell myself that. Um it doesn't it doesn't feel that way often, but I know. And I also yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 25:59

Well, another another thing about academics and high achievers is that we don't give ourselves any credit, right? So that's fine, yeah. That is something that I am happy to do for you. Thank you. Yeah, yeah. I appreciate it. Yeah. Well, Sunny, it's been great to to see you again. And I want to thank you for taking the time to share your experience in the program, share your experience of what this last year has been like for you. And I know that it's going to help a lot of people who are listening. So thank you again. I hope so. Thank you, Sarah. This has it's been really lucky. Thanks for listening to this episode of Significant Impact from K Award to your first big R01. If you want to dig deeper into what we learned today and move a significant step closer to a smooth K2R transition, visit Sarah Dobson.co slash pod and check out all the free stuff we have to help you do just that. Don't forget to subscribe to the show to make sure you hear new episodes as soon as they're released. And if today's episode made you think of a colleague or a friend, please tell them about it. Tune in next time and thanks again for listening.