Speaker 1: 0:01

If you aren't already on the wait list for the next cohort of K-R Essentials, head to our website to sign up so that you can be the first to hear all the details about the program and to get your questions answered. You can do that at sarahdobsonco slash k2r that's S-A-R-A-H-D-O-B-S-O-N, dot C-O. Slash K, number 2 R. Today's episode is a conversation with a recent K-R Essentials graduate. Today's episode is a conversation with a recent K-R Essentials graduate.

Speaker 1: 0:25

These episodes are really special. They're a little longer than a typical episode. You'll hear from me and, of course, you get to hear directly from a former student about their experience in the program. The reason I love these conversations so much, aside from getting to chat with a graduate is because it's one thing to hear me talk about the perspectives and tools that I teach inside K-R Essentials, but it's another thing entirely to hear someone who's applied those tools and perspectives in their own career and to hear what happened when they did. Here's our conversation. Welcome, welcome. Can you introduce yourself and share your pronouns and let us know a little bit about your research?

Speaker 2: 1:08

I'm Ecclesiabon Johnson. My pronouns are she, her, hers. I am an assistant professor at the Nell Hodgson Winter School of Nursing at Emory University in Atlanta, georgia. My research specifically focuses on African-American adult daughters who are supporting a parent living with dementia and really wanting to help with how these adult daughters navigate health care systems and also how these providers and primary care teams work with African-American families, specifically so wanting to create culturally responsive, contextually responsive whichever word is appropriate in the moment interventions to help.

Speaker 1: 1:50

And can you share a little bit about what drew you to that research in the first place?

Speaker 2: 1:59

Well, I think it was a little bit of both personal and my own clinical experience. So I'm a psychiatric mental health nurse practitioner by training. I worked a lot in long-term care facilities so nursing homes, assisted living facilities and really saw that families were struggling with the diagnosis of dementia. Oftentimes there were very little resources given to them before they placed, you know, their family member in a nursing home, and that bothered me as well.

Speaker 2: 2:29

As I was raised in a community of African-American older adults. My mom died when I was two. My parents were not married and so my grandmother, my mom's mom, took me in and raised me and so I think I often say my research is sort of in honor of her. She is 90. She'll be 91 this year. She would definitely rebuke you in the name of Jesus if you try to tell her that she has dementia. But you know, I really do think because of the community I grew up in I was able to notice changes and things and I tell people. Part of the reason I think I specifically focus on this area is when I was reviewing the literature. I'm convinced some of the researchers that wrote the papers didn't know Black people or African-Americans and probably didn't like us very much, because a lot of the results and the conjecture and the discussion just wouldn't have been how I would have interpreted those results, and so I think it was, like I said, a combination of both personal and professional coming together.

Speaker 1: 3:35

Well, and as you know from the work you do inside the program, one of the things we talk about with the North Star is asking you to define your unique perspective and lens and experience that you bring to the table in the research that you do and how that informs the work that you do. And so I think you've really spoken to that in terms of, yeah, your experience and your lens on the work and what it means to you.

Speaker 2: 4:11

Yeah, that North Star project. I tell you it is a beautiful, challenging, difficult assignment and it's interesting because I'm a repeat of the program in the sense that Sarah gave us this amazing opportunity for those of us who were in the winter cohort to stay on in the spring, because in the United States the world is on fire, and so it's interesting. I was so confident in January when I wrote that North Star that when I needed to look at it again in May I guess I second-guessed it for a little bit. Things at my institution, things around NIH and funding, are at such a different place now than they were in January that I'm grateful for the Sarah Dotsons of the world, right, who are like no, this is for you, this is why you get up and do the work that you do, this is your why, why you get up and do the work that you do, this is your why, and to be able to own that. This is the space I'm in.

Speaker 2: 5:28

I remember talking to a researcher and he was like Kalisha, his name is Dr Antonia Skipper, but we call him Skip and he was like I'm a Black man, I do research on Black couples, that's the work I do. And I was like oh OK, I guess I'm an African-American or a Black woman and I do research on adult daughters and I can own that space and be in that space and be OK with it. It's just unfortunate that other people can't be OK with me being, ok with being in this space.

Speaker 1: 6:00

Yeah, and one of the things that we really try to reinforce with the North Star is that all of those external circumstances don't matter. That is not what your mission is about. That is, like you said, for you to own and feel really grounded in and to give you that sense of momentum and purpose when everything around you is trying to convince you that that should not be your mission and your purpose. But all of that stuff is irrelevant. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you've got it. So, klesha, can you cast your mind back to the fall of 2024 or even before that and just talk a little bit about your K Award experience and how that was all going for you?

Speaker 2: 6:52

I've never told you the drama behind my K? Did I tell you that? I don't think so. I am in year four of my K-23. So I actually wrote it in my postdoc. We submitted it, I think, 2020, 2020, because it was funded 2021. And so I wrote it as not a clinical trial, because in my mind I was not doing a clinical trial.

Speaker 2: 7:17

It really is the idea of hearing sort of from these adult daughters what they're going through it's dyadic. So also their parent living with dementia and then developing this intervention that supports them as they navigate the healthcare system. And for anyone who has navigated a healthcare system who is not the spouse or the parent of someone under 18, it is really challenging to get health care professionals to give you the information you want and need. And then, being a person of color, being African-American and being seen as the angry black woman when we're too aggressive, it was really like this perfect way to say how do we bring in you know, how do we thoughtfully look at what's going on with these adult daughters who are doing the bulk of the caregiving in Black communities for parents living with dementia, but we know nothing about them and really give them a seat at the table to say how do we hear from you, what is working, what's not working and how do we develop something for you? My score was good. I got a score of a 20. And it was on its way to being funded.

Speaker 2: 8:29

And I received an email from the program officer that said we actually think we're going to have to pull your grant because you should have applied as a clinical trial. This is a clinical trial, and so you applied as not a clinical trial, so for 24 hours they had pulled my grant for 24 hours, like I received a notice that I had applied incorrectly, I wasn't going to get it, and so I was talking to my mentor about, like how do we regroup? Do we just resubmit? Basically the same thing, but in the appropriate, you know mechanism. And you know I'm praying and sending up smoke signals and hoping for the best and, just, you know, feeling like a failure a little bit too. But then I'm like my life is full of lessons like that. I am the walking book of lessons over here. So this is why I'm honest and don't lie, because I'm the one that gets caught Like that's just how I am, because I'm the one that gets caught Like that's just how I am. And then, 24 hours later, they came back, nia came back and said actually, if you can get the clinical trials paperwork in as just in time, we will go ahead and fund it. So, yeah, don't put the preliminary nothing, preliminary analysis. Don't ever put that those two words together in a grant if you do not mean clinical trial, because you will suffer the stress that I suffered in doing that. But it was a lesson, it was a good lesson and I've been able to share that with other people. And so you know, we were off and running and 2020 was like especially, it was funded in 2021.

Speaker 2: 10:01

So social unrest was a thing. We were talking about diversity, equity and inclusion. We were talking about my life, right Like as a Black woman in the United States, as an African-American woman. We were talking about the things I had been seeing every day, and it was eye-opening and positive and great, I think, at least from my perspective. Of course, I think people of color knew it wasn't going to last forever. You know the pendulum always swings back the other way, but I was delighted to do this work.

Speaker 2: 10:35

I then got pregnant. Yay, I love my son. Thank you, husband. But that sort of derailed my progress. You know it's hard to be in the community when you're nauseous. For 40 weeks I was nauseous every day for 40 weeks. I am not having any more children, unless God tricks me Like no more, but anyway I digress. So that threw off my progress with recruitment. But at the time they had what they called these administrative supplements where they would allow you if you've had a critical life event so pregnancy was considered if you were caring for someone like a parent, like I. I don't know if that's still available, but it was helpful because it gave me an additional seventy thousand dollars to help with recruitment, to hire staff, to sort of bump up my numbers.

Speaker 2: 11:27

But we were like in the middle of COVID and social unrest and I think and now we've got, you know, lots of different changes in the United States and so I think everybody is still sort of seeing the struggle to recruit because life is lifing, as people say. So I'm learning a lot. I think that is the point of K Awards. You end up being your own study coordinator and project manager in all things research, assistant, pi, you are all things on one grant and if you write it right, you know if you write it correctly. I think that's the point right. So I've learned how to delegate tasks. I'm learning new skills, I'm learning how to use project management software and it's been really timely and nice that many of the same project software that you use, like Asana I was already starting to just start to use it and so it's been nice to see in the course and I've also received other funding.

Speaker 2: 12:31

So it's funny because I had did different things on how I was blocking my time and scheduling things where it was like I knew what I was doing each day and each week, but before I took the K to R essentials I didn't know how to look at the forest Right. So, if that makes sense. So I had taken a PI crash course out of Columbia. It's a pretty good workshop, and so what they initially said was you've got all these different to do lists, you've got all these different places and put that somewhere, and so I ended up making my calendar sort of my to-do list. So if it's an email that I can't finish in a couple seconds, it gets plugged into my calendar. So I have a daily, weekly idea of what I'm doing. But I never really broadened that out and brought it out in a way to look quarterly what is happening and yearly what is happening to make sure I'm meeting these milestones for the grants, and so that has been really nice. I don't know if I've answered your question now, like I'm all over the place.

Speaker 1: 13:36

Yeah, well, and it's brought up another question, which is what were you hoping to accomplish in K-R Essentials? Was it that sort of seeing the forest for the trees, or was it something else that drew you to the program?

Speaker 2: 13:51

As I mentioned to you, I have been I don't want to say stalking, because it comes across like weird but I have been following you since I wrote my first F31 that was scored but not funded. So, yes, I don't know who mentioned you or how I found you, and so you know, once you get on someone's listserv, periodically you just see emails and different things. So you know, I attended a couple of the free things around. I'm going to mess it up. Yeah, problem gap hook. Yeah, yes, and then that helped me with my K things around hook, gap, I'm gonna mess it up.

Speaker 2: 14:24

Yeah, problem, gap, hook, yeah, yes. And then that helped me with my K, and so then I was, you know, sort of like watching and paying attention. And then a couple of colleagues were like, oh no, that K to R essentials, you should do that, girl. And so I'm grateful that I did. And so I really think I just knew that, I knew I didn't know enough to feel comfortable writing an R.

Speaker 2: 14:50

And it's funny because I was telling my mentor that I was going to take this course. And he's like well, do you really need it? I've been telling you to write these R aims and blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, yeah, I think I need it. And so I like he's a wonderful mentor, a great mentor, and so he, you know, is one of those people that won't tell me. No, like he will tell me on certain things, but other things he kind of gives me latitude to make my choices. And so when I followed up with him, he's like did you decide to do the course? I said I did. He said, okay, well, how's it going? I said, well, honestly, she's telling me a lot of the same stuff that you told me, but just in a different way, because he was like you know, you need to plan the next grant. Like, what do those aims look like?

Speaker 2: 15:37

But I don't think I could get out of my own head to write them, because it feels like, well, at least before January of 2025, like the R01 was the epitome of research success and it felt daunting and big and huge and something that I didn't quite feel like I had enough to do, where now I'm like, okay, well, I know who I am, because that's what the course teaches us. Like, who are you outside of your mentors? Who is Dr Kalisha Bonds-Johnson? How would I want to lead and what would I want that to look like? And what pieces from my mentors and different individuals along the way have I taken to make sort of who I am, my leadership, my way as a PI, sort of who I am, my leadership, my way as a PI? And then, how do I now get the steps I need to actually execute what I need to execute? And so I think it really was this really nice paradigm shift of like, oh girl, you can do this.

Speaker 2: 16:39

And still now I'm like the R01 still feels daunting because, again, even though I feel like institutions want us to say well, you know, just get money wherever we can't untrain the brain of thinking of how important the R01 is was. However, you want to look at it in the sense of well, I'm developing interventions and I can't really write the next grant till I have an idea of what the intervention is going to look like and what it will do. But I appreciate your thoughts also around. But what are the outcomes? And I can't say it the way you say it, but it's less about what it will do, I think, and more or less about how it will potentially change things in the patient population that I'm interested in, and so it's given me a different way to think.

Speaker 2: 17:35

Again, you should just take her course, because I can't explain K to R the way that Sarah can explain it. But when you sit in those sessions you're like oh okay, I got it, and so I think that's where I'm at. Like I wasn't exactly sure what I was going to get. I just knew I needed something more than what I was getting from my current mentoring team. Not to take anything from them they are phenomenal, but I just needed. I just needed more.

Speaker 1: 18:08

Yeah, and I know a lot of students come into K to R Essentials because they have that exact same advice from their mentors around. You should be doing this, but their response is OK, but how and and. So what we do in the program is not exactly teach you, is not exactly teach you how, but we sort of teach you how to figure it out for yourself, because it's not going to look the same for everybody. I mean some basic skills and frameworks are going to be constant, but really what we're trying to do is help you build that roadmap for yourself and figure out the pieces that you need to be successful along the way. And I mean that is kind of hard to explain, I guess, until you experience it. But yeah, I mean I'm glad that you trusted that you would get what you need just from being in the room, and I mean, from my side of things, you most definitely have, but I won't speak for you.

Speaker 2: 19:09

Yeah, no, I mean, again, I have followed you enough to know I like her personality. I think I can learn from her. She seems to know what she's talking about, like you know. I mean you've got the accolades and different things on your website to prove that you know what you're talking about. And I had a dear friend, quinn Denfield, who went through the program and was like it was really positive for me and does have R01s since. So again, I had enough yeses in the pros and cons categories or the pros and cons list. I had enough pros to be like let's try it. And I had some additional funding from my K-23 that covered it, which was nice.

Speaker 2: 19:47

And I think the other thing, it is really hard to bring in different women from different parts of the world or the US, so different institutions, different age groups, different races, different ethnicities and sort of create a sisterhood. But you do that. This is my second one and I can say in both settings are they slightly different? Of course, because the women who attend are slightly different, but it ends up feeling like a sisterhood. Or, and I hate to say, safe spaces, because it's so hard to give people safety, but I like the term brave space. So it's a space where we feel brave enough to speak up. Or if we get emotional, it's okay, you know, or if we're just having a crap day, we can say that, and so I am.

Speaker 2: 20:41

I'm grateful for it. I miss the sessions when I can't join, and I usually find some time to fold clothes or something so I can just watch them, because it's something about being in that space of other women who are going through the exact same thing that I'm going through. That is just so powerful. I know that about myself. I need people to thrive and it's just a beautiful. It's a beautiful atmosphere that you create.

Speaker 1: 21:11

Well, thank you for saying that and you are someone who has taken full advantage of the community, in the sense of, of course, participating on the group calls that we have, but also using the community forum that we have as well and posting in there and getting support and coaching in that space and, of course, the calls that you can attend. You always watch the recording. So, yeah, I mean star student for taking advantage of all of that stuff.

Speaker 2: 21:47

Selfish reason I have learned. This is how I I could never be someone that works totally remote and doesn't have that engagement with other people. I just know I need that, and so, because you give us the opportunity to do that in multiple ways, why would I take advantage of it? Because it helps me feel better about me, but it also helps me grow right and to make these connections, and who knows, there may be some R01s that come from us being together in the same space.

Speaker 1: 22:18

Yeah, yeah. Well, and that's why all of those resources are available in so many different ways is because we know that people learn differently and have different schedules, and we just try to make it as accessible as possible in as many different ways so that people can participate in the way that makes the most sense to them. And you know, participating in all the ways is amazing. I mean, yeah, it's an option, it's all definitely an option. Yeah, so, kalisha, can you share something like a moment or an insight from the program that really changed things for you? Does anything come to mind?

Speaker 2: 23:02

Probably a couple of things, but the first thing I'll mention is the inner mentor, and I don't want to give that away. But that exercise I did it both in the winter and in the spring cohort and in both instances has been one of the most grounding, grounding, kind, thoughtful experiences for me, where it's almost like I'm an anxious person, I run on anxiety, I'm trying to figure out how to be calm and collect and that's my husband, that's not me and it's one of those things where if I'm spinning, it's like okay, ground yourself, girl. How do you bring it back into focus? You can do this. You know the answers, you got this and so, and of course we did that today. So I think that's why it's fresh in my mind and also one of my favorite things.

Speaker 2: 24:11

I think the other thing is probably that North star. I mean that that is powerful. I'm trying to figure out if I want to like mount it on my wall somewhere, or what I want to like create a shirt or a mug or something as I'm going through as a reminder of my why, because basically you end up writing your why for research, and I was attending an event at my institution this week and they were talking about sort of the funding climate, and that was one of the things was kind of your what is your why? And they were. Well, I see a few people writing and I'm like I don't have to write my why because I already have my North Star and I did mention this course in there. So I was like it's not that I'm not participating, I've just already done the work to know what my why is, and so I think those are probably the two most exciting and centering things. And I think the last thing I would say is that if we follow the steps you provide, you really do help us in productivity. That is, you know, those are those later months, so I'm happy that I'm gonna get to take them again, because my life was lifing um, and so I'm delighted to be, and it's interesting too, as I'm listening to the material for a second time, that some of the things I kind of thought I knew or like glossed over, hit different the second time around. And so, again, grateful for this opportunity, but also really, really excited, for I think the inner mentor and the North Star sort of give me like inner warmth, like oh, I can do it Like the superwoman pose they tell you to get into.

Speaker 2: 26:03

You know your hands on your hips when you're getting ready to go to an interview. Do the superwoman pose. They tell you to get into you know your hands on your hips when you're getting ready to go to an interview. Do the superwoman pose? Like that is kind of like my superwoman superpower. But then you also give us these practical strategies of like okay, what are your rocks and where's your water and where's your sand, and how do we organize your day, and not just your day and your week. But let's pull it out and look at the quarter and look at the year and the year is way too intimidating to look at but quarter by quarter by quarter. And so I think if we actually follow the tips you give us, it not only makes us feel good, but it does give us the opportunity to execute.

Speaker 1: 26:45

Yeah, I mean, the way that we structure things is so that you have that inner piece first, you have that superwoman piece first, as you described, which I think is such a great way to think about it, and then the back half of the program is really about operationalizing that. It's like how do you take what you understand about yourself and how you want to do your research in the world and lead, and how do we actually make that real? And so there's the very sort of high level piece, followed by the really pragmatic rubber meets road piece. And of course, we do it in that order, because it's really hard to do the pragmatic piece if you don't have, if you haven't really thought deeply about like, why am I here, what do I want and how do I want to move forward? Yeah, what is one thing that you learned in the program that you didn't know you needed to learn?

Speaker 2: 27:52

I'm going to decide if this is a program I think I think I'm going to put, I'm going to give credit to the program as well as because it was kind of like the same time right, so like 2025 came in and at the same time, I think I have absolutely, I absolutely believe that I'm brilliant. Yeah, Don't say it like that, Sarah.

Speaker 1: 28:26

Well, no, listen, I'm going to stop you right there, because you came into our very first call with that attitude and statement and you blew away everybody else in the room.

Speaker 2: 28:40

It was such a new thing. I am a people pleaser by nature. I am often underappreciated, overlooked, until I leave, and then people like, oh, she was great, like we should have kept her, or oh, would you want to come back? And so it was this newness that came and I was able to own it in that space, right where I'm like I'm brilliant, like I. And my mentor is Irish, one of my mentors I've had since my dissertation and so when she says brilliant, like it's different kind of like when you say resources, I'm like I'm gonna say resources the way you say resources.

Speaker 2: 29:22

I know I'm off script now, but I don't think, and I'm not just going to say women, but again, society has conditioned women, and women of color especially, to take whatever is given us, like whatever scraps they throw. You just take it and you're just happy. You got a job, you're just happy. You know someone loved you. You just and it's like no, like I want all the things that are due to me because I've worked really hard, like I've earned every single thing and then some, and so to finally believe that I'm brilliant and being a space with other brilliant women, like there aren't too many spaces like that or at least that I've had the opportunity to be in, where it's not cutthroat and we're not out to get each other and we really are just wanting to show up and be the best versions of ourselves that we can be and uplift each other. Like, yeah, that's I think I knew I needed. I just don't think I knew how much I needed it Because research would have you believe it.

Speaker 2: 30:45

You just come up with an idea, you write the grant. You don't necessarily need people, at least not at that peer level. You need some people working under you. You need some people doing the grunt work and doing this and doing that, but no, like, really to do really good research, especially community engaged research, you need people at the table that you see as peers and allies and friends. And I miss that because in academia that is not the culture that is cultivated. Often I mean you got people that work together enough, that publish together or write grants together, but it's not really that I'm showing up to be my best self and I'm going to lift you up.

Speaker 1: 31:33

Yeah. So, to reflect back what I'm hearing, it's that you and I will say it this way, and I hope you won't fight me on it that you came in believing that you are brilliant. That wasn't something that the program gave you, because you already had it and the community affirmed that for you.

Speaker 2: 32:16

Amen, amen, hoping people believe that I was brilliant because I was finally accepting that maybe I was, and then the community completely affirmed it and then I just took it and ran with it at that point. So I'm out here acting all the way up in 2025.

Speaker 1: 32:28

As you should, as you should, yeah, yeah. I mean I agree that it can be really hard to believe that we deserve all of the things that we want, and just having a space that lets you speak that out loud and for people to say, yeah, of course, obviously, look at you right, it's yeah, it changes things.

Speaker 2: 32:55

Even with the North Star, remember I told you I had a difference from the first to the second. I'm like I'm going to try it in the K-R essentials because I'm getting some pushback from people that maybe my North Star is wrong. Wrong might not be the right word, but it was enough to make me second guess. Should I be looking at all adult daughters? Maybe it's not just African-American adult daughters I should be focusing on. Maybe it's all adult daughters I should be focusing on who are doing this really incredible, tireless work, and I take nothing from the other races and ethnicities doing it. I do recognize it's hard, but it was like can I let me put this in the community and see what they say? Because I I trust those girls.

Speaker 1: 33:52

So, and and what did you? What did they say? What did you hear? They said are you kidding me? Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2: 33:58

Exactly, and even you were like your North star is for you. If nothing else, my North star is for you, nothing else, my North Star is for me and this is my North Star, regardless of what the current administration or leadership or institutions say. This is my North Star. Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1: 34:18

So what advice would you give to someone who's considering joining K-R? Central is about how to make the most of their time in the program.

Speaker 2: 34:27

Ooh, now that part Definitely join, and she is not playing when she's like can you carve out six hours, which feels like nothing until your weeks run together and you've got something due, and then six hours is huge. The time commitment is doable, though, because the one thing I will say, other than your own guilt, no one else makes you feel bad if you're quote unquote behind on the viewing. So you typically get. You know, there's a lecture or a didact, there's something you have to review each week, which typically comes with worksheets that go along with it. I like to do it week by week, so week one I try to view it, I try to do the like homework associated with it, and I do like the idea of the whole write it down on paper and then transcribe it. But that's additional work, right? So you write it and then you have to transcribe it into the worksheets, and then you can save the pdfs and keep them.

Speaker 2: 35:39

Um, but I found so my I have a two-year-old, and so I have found that he loves YouTube and he's all about basically nursery rhymes with a beat. So if they have some kind of hip-hop beat, he is all into it. But I don't want to watch that all day long, so I have found that I can set my AirPods in and I can listen. It's harder to do some of the writing part, although I've done some of the writing, but I do try to do some of that while he is living his best life to YouTube. But that's the part like sort of trying to figure out and carve out time because you want to go through all the material. It is really really good and it helps to go through the material before we have the coaching calls. But you can do a coaching call without the materials, because I'm going to tell you this is my second time around and I tell you I'm still in month one and we are clearly in month two, but I still was able to get what I needed out of the coaching calls and everything is recorded.

Speaker 2: 36:47

And so finding time whether it's for me sometimes, like I think I mentioned earlier, if I'm doing laundry, it's just nice to play the coaching calls back or listen to some of the recordings. Maybe if you've got a commuting, you can do it when you're driving. I don't know. You've got to figure out what works for you. But don't neglect the time or overlook the time it takes to be in the program. Because I do wonder when people don't attend the coaching calls if part of that is guilt because they feel behind. But I mean, we have the worksheets and whether you get them done while we're in the program or not.

Speaker 2: 37:31

Because again, I'll be completely honest, I was on it for month one, two and I think three. I think month four in the winter cohort. I got a little, I finished all of the recordings and lessons, but some of the worksheets were a challenge. But part of that is because there's so much uncertainty with the current funding and in that last month it's kind of like if you know when your grant's going to end, then you need to prepare for like what the next grant is right and so you need to give yourself, you know, several months For me it's like six to nine to write that next proposal, but it's one.

Speaker 2: 38:16

It's hard to feel motivated in the current climate to write that proposal. But also there was kind of some uncertainty around whether or not the year I technically lost with my son would I get that. And then, talking with program officers, it does seem like it is possible to get a no cost extension. But they're not just automatically given out, you just have to request them. So it's hard to know when to write the next grant if you don't know when your current grant's ending. So I think that affected some of my ability to finish it. But again, the time definitely do it right. Like you'll figure out the time. You'll still get what you need from the coaching calls and from the sessions. And I don't know how long the K to R Essentials platform is open after we're done, like if you wanted to play catch up.

Speaker 1: 39:12

Do you get a week or two, or no, typically it does close down at the end of the fourth month, but, like you said, there are all those workbooks that you can take away with you and do them after. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 39:26

So again, if nothing else, listen to the videos, because those will go away. The worksheets we have, the workbooks we have forever. But if you don't know what she's talking about because you didn't listen to the video, that makes it a bit of a challenge. And they're not super long, Like. They range from like 10 minutes to maybe 20, 25 minutes. So again it is. It is something that can be planned in your day. Just don't do like me and forget to put it on your calendar this time around.

Speaker 1: 40:01

So we've touched on this a bit throughout this conversation, but I wondered if there's anything else that you wanted to say, kalisha, about what it was like being in that January to May or January to April, cohort, cohort and any of the tools in the program that helped kind of navigate that time.

Speaker 2: 40:33

Well, that time, hmm, I think the cadence of the program gives you something to show up for when you don't know if grants are going to continue to be funded, when you have other cohort members whose grants have been terminated, and at that point, you know, there was, like every week it felt like a new headline about what was happening or what was to come or what might happen. And so being able to have a place outside of our institution, outside of my institution, where I could thoughtfully discuss what was happening, was powerful. And Sarah maybe it's because she's not a US citizen is actually quite positive like all the time, not like overly positive, but she's definitely a glass half full kind of person, and so she would let us wallow right and get it all out. But we couldn't stay there. You know, even today we was like no, no, no, Okay, now we got to get to the meat of the session. And so having a reason to show up, learning something that is important for your career, whether we choose to stay in academia or not, I think is huge. And then having a space where you can have this dialogue with other people going through it and compare your experience at your institution to what's happening with other people at their institutions was huge and really, really helpful.

Speaker 2: 42:29

I remember just deciding that I had to quit doing deep dives every time there was a new headline. I'm like my institution pays people to look online to figure this out to then compile it in an email that they send to us. It is not my job to follow every New York Times headline or to see what's been tweeted, or I don't even know what X'd, I guess, since it's not Twitter anymore. I don't know what you call it, but it just wasn't, that wasn't my job. And so once I took that away, then a lot of anxiety kind of calmed and settled. But I think having I'm the type of person that I need something to do when I'm anxious and busy, and so this gave us something to do. So it's let me watch the videos, let me work on the workbooks, let me you know what else can I do? This is a strategy I need to incorporate into my calendar, into my everyday life, and so let me join the coaching call. Let me see how everyone else is doing and let me show up for them because they're showing up for me. And so it ended let me post in the community. Let's see who else is posting. So it ended up being not busy work, but it kept my mind occupied beyond what was going on at my institution, in my world, and I needed that. I didn't realize I needed it, but I needed that Because I do feel like, in spite of it all, my science continued to move forward, because I had strategies on how to still stay motivated to do the work, because, again, the front half is about, like us, the inner work that we need to do.

Speaker 2: 44:16

So that was being strengthened at a time where, as I like to say, the world was on fire, is still on fire. And then or at least my world, because the US is not all of the world, but I digress and then also giving us some practical strategies to say, oh, I was already doing that with my calendar, but I wasn't doing this in Asana, where I've got this whole plan for the quarter of what I need to get done, and then how can I incorporate that with the staff and the students that I have working in my lab? And so I think, because of the structure of the program, it gave me a sense of structure, of how to continue when there was pure chaos.

Speaker 1: 45:08

Is there anything else you want to add before we wrap up?

Speaker 2: 45:12

Y'all just join. I mean, if you can find the funds, it is so worth it. I think some of the people I have met in these cohorts are going to be friends and colleagues like for life, because we went through it at such a difficult time and I don't think I don't foresee things being much better over the next year or so and so I think if you haven't done this course, it's one that I would highly recommend. I foresee that I will be going back to these worksheets and being like now what does she say? What I need to do? What was that plan?

Speaker 2: 45:56

for writing a grant and I think it'll be something that I just use, moving forward regardless. And so, yeah, if you feel like your world is upside down and you need to find your North Star in more than one way sort of how to guide us as early careers, as women, as scientists, into that next chapter of your career consider it, Because, yeah, it's been a great experience for me. I'm so glad I did it, yeah that's all we got.

Speaker 1: 46:39

Well, thank you so much for taking the time. Kalisha, thank you for being in the program. I know how much you have inspired your cohort with just who you are and how you move in the world and it's just such a delight to have you and I hope you'll stay in touch and let me know how things go. And yeah, I'm always here for that. Thanks for listening to this episode of Significant Impact from K Award to your first big R01. If you want to dig deeper into what we learned today and move a significant step closer to a smooth K-R transition, visit sarahdobsonco slash pod and check out all the free stuff we have to help you do just that. Don't forget to subscribe to the show to make sure you hear new episodes as soon as they. Thank you.