If you aren't already on the wait list for the next cohort of K-R Essentials, head to our website to sign up so that you can be the first to hear all the details about the program and to get your questions answered. You can do that at sarahdobsonco slash k2r that's S-A-R-A-H-D-O-B-S-O-N, dot C-O. Slash K, number 2 R. Today's episode is a conversation with a recent K-R Essentials graduate. Today's episode is a conversation with a recent K-R Essentials graduate. These episodes are really special. They're a little longer than a typical episode. You'll hear from me and, of course, you get to hear directly from a former student about their experience in the program. The reason I love these conversations so much, aside from getting to chat with a graduate is because it's one thing to hear me talk about the perspectives and tools that I teach inside K-R Essentials, but it's another thing entirely to hear someone who's applied those tools and perspectives in their own career and to hear what happened when they did. Here's our conversation, welcome. So can you introduce yourself and tell us your pronouns and a bit about your research?

Hi, my name is Hai-Sha Zeng and I'm currently an associate investigator work for a place called Laurier Institute for Brain Research, which is located in Tulsa, oklahoma. So I got my PhD from Japan and moved to Oklahoma in 2019 as a postdoc and then I was pretty lucky to get promoted as associate investigator like assistant research assistant professor level in just two and a half years and I wrote my K01 a year into my after. After I got promoted, I I wrote my K01 and got funded on my first try, which I have to thank for your what's that K award formula yeah, it's the grant funding formula.

It's the K award class. Yeah, yeah, I remember you mentioning that.

Yeah, it helped me a lot and my research is about. I've been studying how viral infection and immune activation affect brain structure and function in the context of depression, and so that's my work and my case about bringing this line of research to a population level using longitudinal data and integrate all the genetic biomarker, behavior neural imaging all together to really dive deeper into whether this link between viral infection can lead to brain change and increased risk for depression and other mental health and, if so, then using all this data and statistical method to see if we can understand some mechanistic understanding in terms of the neurobiological pathways. So my overarching research program is about viral infection, brain change and how that increased the risk of mental health, particularly depression.

And can you tell me a little bit about what drew you to that work in the first place? What was it about that work that was fascinating to you?

Well. So my background was clinical psychology and cognitive neuroscience. I was not intended to enter the field called immunopsychiatry, like bringing the immunology component. At the time I actually needed a job and for my personal reason I have to move to Tulsa, very specific, and there's only one place I can work for. So I bring my skill to this lab, immunopsychiatry. The PI happy to hire me because I have the skill he needs and he doesn't have. So that worked out pretty well. I published and then I used those publications as a stepping stone to get my K. So it's a little bit accidental, just by chance bump into this, this field, um. However, I think that's a um. I was lucky that it worked out. You know, I get to, I get to have my k, but I don't think it's the best strategy to. You know, do things like that yeah, I mean fair enough.

I I will say that I had, uh, I mean, similar experiences, just wanting to, or needing to to move to a new place and and find work, and, I would say, allowing the work that I was doing to open up new interests and new possibilities for things that I did genuinely find interesting but never would have encountered had it not been for this sort of serendipitous job. And so, yeah, I agree, like I don't know that it's a great strategy necessarily, but I think it's important to.

Yeah, I think it's important to stay open to those opportunities and let your curiosity take you to new places and let yourself be sort of influenced by the environment that you're in. I mean, yeah, like I said, I've definitely had those experiences myself, so I get it. Yeah, I really do. But yeah, I really do. So, haisha, can you cast your mind back to the fall of 2024 and remember what you were experiencing back then as you were working on your K Award, and some of the challenges that you were encountering that led you to seek out K to R Essentials?

Challenges. Okay, because I never write. I have never written any grant Because my PhD was from Japan. I didn't even have the concept that I need to write a grant to support myself, my career, my research and stuff. So it's this thing that I've never done before. I have no idea how to do it. I was desperately needed some basic guideline.

It's very much like you were forced to play a chess game and people tell you all the rates of winning this game is really low and then you don't even know the rule of the game. That's terrifying, yeah, that's terrifying. So you know I try to write specific aim. And the mentor? You know they try to be supportive and help, but they don't know how to teach you or they don't have. You know they don't. They might know you made a mistake here or there. They give you comments, but you know I just keep revising, revising and never get them to say, yes, this is a great, to that level of saying this is a great aim, and they will give you feedback, say, oh, nobody ever gets it right. You just try your best, but that's not good enough, because now I know specific aim. Actually, every single, every single sentence have its own purpose. There's a why to write, there's a way you need to structure every single sentence, every single paragraph, so so that kind of comments or edits from mentor is not enough.

And so what was it that you were hoping to accomplish inside of K to R Essentials?

K to R Essentials. So after you get the K, the whole point of K is get to next R. So it's not really about completing your K, it's about how to transition into R. And now that's a similar situation as I described before. This is a different task than writing the K and analyzing data published in your paper. This is now a brand new challenge and I don't have skill and training and I don't know the rule you know. So I was at the same position. I desperately need to know more about what is this all about and how do I plan myself and prepare myself for that.

Yeah, and I think what's different in my view about you know, securing a K award and then making that transition from K to R, is that it's not just about learning how to write a new grant, it's about so many other things that surround the getting of major research project funding, and it's about understanding that you need to kind of create your own path and your own roadmap. And so the rules some of those rules that worked to get your K-Word just don't apply anymore, and that in itself is terrifying. If you're accustomed to figuring out what the rules are, following the rules and just checking those boxes, now you're in a whole new world where there are no check boxes. You have to kind of make your own. And yeah, I mean that to me is why the program exists is to help everybody figure out what those checkboxes are for themselves and create the type of career that works for them.

After I went through this K2 Archon essential cohort, I'm still not comfortable. I feel like there's so many things I need to continue to learn and digest and, you know, work on figure it out. But at least I got some general. I would say it pointed me in the right direction, because no course would be like a magical give you or get you ready for your own transition. Like you said, it's about your own path. You create your own map.

So, yeah, there's a lot of things I still need to figure out and, little by little, create that path for myself exactly, yeah, and, and like we talk about at the very in our very first call, is the, the sort of stages of learning a new skill. There's learning, and then there's integrating, and then there's mastering. And what I tell everybody is I don't expect you to master any of these skills in four months. That is too high a bar for any of you to set for yourselves. If you're coming in fresh with, you know, having never, never, learned this skill before, to go from learning something new to mastering it in four months is unrealistic, right. But to recognize that it is a skill that you could implement and begin to integrate into your life, like that's the piece that I really want to make sure that everybody has.

When we're talking about foundational skills, right, if you're learning something new, it's just understand what the skill is and how it might be useful to you and then, over time, with practice, that's when you can move towards real integration and, ultimately, mastery. I totally agree. Yeah, yeah, so you're right on track. So can you tell us something that you did learn inside the course that has helped you?

um, I think I, I think every mod module, so we got four different modules right, every module. I learned a lot of again, a lot of clarity, because I was, I was, I was, I wasn't sure about my scientific program, the vision vision, like where my nose start, using the language, and so I think I get more clear on that than before. That's helpful. And the leadership part we talk about in a mentor, that's the piece that really really helped me and I think it's very important thing for me to learn, because I have always been relying on people give me advice, like my mentor, my boss, my director, I have.

I just grew up this way people kind of give me advice, tell me what to do, and I just followed.

But we're at the position PI, you're running your own lab, and some people are really good at that because they grew up in a way that you know, have their own mind and they go after their dream or whatever. But for me I definitely needed that part and you know, just like when I talk about okay, you know advice, just like the when I talk about K, and you know specific and the comments and or advice from other people. It's from their standing point, based on their experience and you are not them, you not be able to implement that in a way they, they, you know implied and it may not work for you. Um so, and different people will give you completely opposite advice sometimes. Then how do you make that decision for yourself? So you, you the best person to guide yourself to you and and I learned that from that course and I think it is super helpful- and so can you say a little bit more about how that has changed, how you act in your career or the decisions you make?

Yeah, so there's two pieces of it. Oh, I can give you an example. The other day I had a meeting with my director and my director is also my primary mentor, my K, and he suggests oh, why don't you use the electronic health record data? In these days, you know, to answer some of your research questions, I can give you high impact paper because we have this, that that you know In the past. I will be, I will jump in or think, yes, we have a resource to do that and that sounds like a great idea. My boss and my mentor want me to do that. I'm happy to do it.

However, after I get more clarity on my vision, I would notice my research program is not about clinical trial programs, not about clinical trial, and that you know. He wanted me to study, so I studied viral infection and depression. He's asked, he's basically asked question does the depressed people have this viral infection response differently to certain treatment? And that's not my hypothesis behind my research program and also, it's not a research direction I want to go. I would never want to know whether it's just not a research question that I care about and I would never run a clinical trial to even test it out. I don't see my R next grant, next project coming out from that project if I undertake. So.

I explained to him in a logical way. I told him this is not my hypothesis and I have my plan one, two, three and stuff. And he was very pleased. The whole time he was smiling at me. He was happy that I have my own mind. I know, you know, I'm kind of think things through these things, not just jump right in. And he's a good mentor. He, I think he acknowledged there's some maturity in terms of being a junior faculty to be able to say no to you know, he's coming from a good intention. He thought that could help me. He thought that could help my research program. But I explained to him that no, this is going to waste my time, not not for my purpose yeah, yeah, I.

I think that is such a good illustration of what you said before about how you, how you interpret advice and recommendations and feedback from other people. Right, because it's coming from their own opinions and their own perspectives and and that's probably what what he would have done if he were in your position, because that is a question that's interesting to him. But because, yeah, and because you got really clear on your vision and the types of questions that were interesting to you, you were able to articulate that to him and say, look, no, this is not a direction that I want to move into. This is what my hypothesis is, this is where my program of research is headed and I'm not going to let that distract me and.

I, I mean I could not be happier to hear that that is exactly what we want our students to see.

On top of that, I also very clear about my own skills. So he's a clinician, he cares about treatment, treatment response and he runs tons of clinical trials. So for him that's a logical next step to do. But for me I told him I haven't built up any clinical trial experience, so this type of research question will never be the type of grant I will be writing.

Yeah, and it's not only that you haven't built up that type of experience, but you have no desire to. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, yeah, right, so it's. I mean, it's both of those things. And yeah, if I, you know, if I put my research grant consultant hat on, it would be very difficult to make a case, if you don't have experience running clinical trials, that this is what you're going to do. So that's, you know, that's one side of things, but the other side is that's not what you want to do.

That's not where your research is headed, that's not what you're interested in, and that, to me, is far, far more important.

Yeah, I actually told him I can do something I don't believe Incredible. I love it. I mean, this is what I want for all of the graduates. I think that's outstanding. And he actually happy to hear that. He was happy to assume that pushing back and saying no is going to result in some sort of negative consequence or that you'll upset somebody and it will go very badly, and so for that reason, we tend to avoid those kinds of conversations or just it. You know it. It sometimes feels easier just to say yes, yes, I'll do that, because you don't want to have that difficult conversation. But, as you've discovered, those conversations can actually be really positive. And, as you pointed out, he saw growth in you and your own leadership in you know scientific leadership in where you're going, and yeah, that's, you know that leadership in where you're going, and yeah, that's you know that's a positive outcome rather than a negative one, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I agree.

Yeah, yeah, I think what a great example. Thank you for sharing that. So, haisha, is there something you learned in the program that you were not expecting to learn, or that maybe that you didn't know that you needed to learn?

that the inner mental thing was one I didn't know I needed to learn, because I told you in a, I grew up in a way. I see I seek this advice and you know, and I followed their, the authorities advice, and I just never had the habit of doing the think about what I want. So that's something I never know I need to do. And after I learned this, I feel like, yeah, it makes totally sense, because I'm the one running my lab, I'm the one running my lab, I'm the one responsible for the ground I need to write, you know. So I had to develop that skill and habits. And that's one thing. And oh yeah, and another thing when we talk about setting priority, we talk about stone, sand and water metaphor and to determine the importance of your day-to-day task.

I think that really helped me a lot because sometimes, when I'm not productive and also those most important tasks writing, paper writing grant it's hard, and sometimes I sit there whole day, couldn't come up with much stuff I feel bad about myself. So I will try to find some small task and fill my day and do those things and then at the end of the day, you feel like you accomplished, you feel like you're not unproductive. You get false sense of productivity but at the end of the day, that's not really what you need to spend your time and energy to do. So it's again getting the clarity of what's aligned my North Star, what's what's aligned my north star, what's what's important, and help me set the priority right now. I can overcome even though today I haven't write much, but I still need to set three hours. Sit there right. Instead of spending spending the three hours, do something else. That doesn't matter at all.

Yeah yeah, I think that is so common Well, I know that that is so common that we avoid the important but not urgent work because it requires a lot more of us emotionally, cognitively, and so we push it aside as much as we can in favor of doing the quick wins, the, the little sort of dopamine hits of, you know, answering emails and checking things off and and, with exactly that result of just not feeling like we've accomplished much of anything, because it's just these tiny, little you know steps that we've taken versus the, the important, meaningful work that we are not doing because it feels too hard. But in the same way like we were talking about earlier, in the same way that we avoid difficult conversations with people because we think that they're going to go badly and we are trying to avoid those negative feelings, we avoid the negative feelings of I'm not good at this, I don't know what I'm doing, I don't know how to get started, in favor of the, of the easier thing and that just we sabotage ourselves because we are avoiding. We're avoiding emotional discomfort. But if we just can find a way, yeah, if we can just find a way to move towards the emotional discomfort just a little bit, I mean, as you shared in that beautiful example, it usually goes way better than we imagine it's going to. And another, I will always remember this One of our graduates from a while ago described it in her mind, the way that she got over.

This was saying nobody dies from discomfort. So just this idea of like nothing bad is going to happen if I let myself feel uncomfortable. And that's how she finally got herself to sit down and do the writing that she needed to do and she was like, yeah, sure enough, I didn't die. It didn't feel great, but I didn't die, and so, and then every time after that it got a little bit easier because she was kind of building that muscle. And so, yeah, I think so much of what we do is just avoiding emotional discomfort and it's just very, it's very human of us to to do that.

I think that's so true. Well summarized, well put. I think that applied to so many other area in life as well.

Yeah, it's true yeah, so what advice would you give somebody who is considering joining k to r essentials about how to make the most of their time in the program? What would you tell them?

They are considering. I think they need to first ask themselves what they want to get out of this program. If they want to learn how to write grammar, this is not a place for them. If they are, someone like me don't have clarity on I don't know how to basically be an independent investigator, and so it really is trying to lay some foundation, increase the awareness about what this career is about and what it takes, and there's some tools like strategy and planning. Those are the tools that we can use to make it happen.

So I think this program from my own experience, it's great for those people like similar to me, don't have a clear vision. I know there are people that are great, they're awesome, they know what they want and they know how to get it. They might still benefit from this program because there's still a lot of practical tools they can use. I think the people need it the most is the people like me that just not knowing, not knowing where we want to go, and then have some people pleasing tenders tendency, afraid of saying no, um, you know that that that would benefit the most from this program. That's my experience.

Is there anything else you'd like to add before we wrap up today?

I can't think of anything from the top of my head, yeah, but I really appreciate your program. I think, yeah just in many ways helped me improve the awareness and clarity that I really seek, I really wanted, from the program and those practical tools. Actually, to be honest, there's a lot of things I haven't. I go through the course. I haven't really implemented that yet. I do the time tracking. I haven't done that but luckily we will have access to the material. I will be able to, on my own pace, be able to implement those things in the coming weeks, I hope.

Well, thank you for your time today. It was great to see you again and it was a joy to have you in the program and to witness your transformation. And I know I say this to uh that comes on the show for an interview, but I really do hope that you stay in touch and let me know about your successes and your progress. And, yeah, thank you for being here today thank you for your program and the space you create for us, step closer to a smooth K-R transition.

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