If you aren't already on the wait list for the next cohort of K-R Essentials, head to our website to sign up so that you can be the first to hear all the details about the program and to get your questions answered. You can do that at sarahdobsonco slash k2r that's S-A-R-A-H-D-O-B-S-O-N, dot C-O. Slash K, number 2 R. Today's episode is a conversation with a recent K-R Essentials graduate. Today's episode is a conversation with a recent K-R Essentials graduate. These episodes are really special. They're a little longer than a typical episode. You'll hear from me and, of course, you get to hear directly from a former student about their experience in the program. The reason I love these conversations so much, aside from getting to chat with a graduate, is because it's one thing to hear me talk about the perspectives and tools that I teach inside K-R Essentials, but it's another thing entirely to hear someone who's applied those tools and perspectives in their own career and to hear what happened when they did. Here's our conversation. Welcome, welcome. The first thing, of course, is to introduce yourself and share your pronouns.

Sure, my name is Caitlin Rancher and my pronouns are she, her. So I'm a clinical psychologist by training and my work is really focused on studying the consequences of children's exposure to violence and trauma and testing parenting-based interventions to help families and victims exposed to trauma. And I was really drawn to this work early on with a clinical experience where I was working with children in this after-school program who were experiencing really significant levels of behavior problems and distress and trauma is super ubiquitous across this population, really common. But what we found was there's really big differences in child adjustment. Some kids were doing really well and some were really struggling.

So I was drawn to this question of risk and resiliency and who does well and how can we build that resilience in kids who aren't doing so well. And caregivers support. This importance of having someone in your corner, someone who's going to show up for you, help protect you, listen to you, help you access all these really helpful resources emerge as a really important factor. So large focus my current work is trying to continue to understand those risk resilience factors who does well after child trauma and how can we support those helpers who are getting them in the door? How can we build up caregivers. How can we increase their abilities, their self-efficacy to provide that really pivotal protection and care for these kids who've experienced trauma?

And that's the work that you're currently doing in your K.

It is. So the K99-ROO that I have was specifically designed to recognize not only are caregivers important and really in need of our help and services and how to improve their abilities to provide that emotional support and showing up for their children, but we have really good programs that do that already. We have like trauma-focused CBT, parent-child interaction therapy, pcit. We have all these really good programs, but they're lengthy they take eight to 20 sessions long to deliver. They take extensive resources in terms of training time, personnel power to learn how to do them with fidelity and then to actually deliver them. And so families on our trauma treatment waitlist spend months waiting to get those really effective, helpful treatments. And so what we're doing with this K99 and onto this next phase of the research is what can we do while they're waiting? Can we offer something like a brief parenting program to caregivers and their families on the waitlist for trauma-focused treatment to give them something to help teach some of these foundational skills to better prepare them for later trauma-focused treatment, for later trauma-focused treatment?

But there's a couple nuances and challenges, of course, recognizing that they're on the wait list for a reason, because the provider is not available. So how do we leverage our paraprofessional workforce. How do we get folks in the door who might be able to do this even if they're not licensed? What can we teach them to deliver these services and how do we pay for this? How do we implement it in existing systems of care? So that's the broad scope of what we're trying to do and seeing some really positive things. So now we're on to the pilot test of let's do it, let's try it on, let's see if we can actually deliver this with paraprofessionals, two families on the wait list and early signals. Look like it's going to work. It's going to be helpful. We don't anticipate this will replace treatment, but more of a stepped care model. Can this will replace treatment, but more of a stepped care model? Can we get folks engaged so they can get to the good stuff?

Yeah, that sounds like really meaningful, rewarding work to be doing, yeah, good. So, caitlin, when you cast your mind back to the fall of 2024 and what was going on in your K99-R00 way back then, what is it that you were challenged by, struggling with, and what was it that led you to seek out the support of K to R Essentials?

Yeah, that was this really critical time where I was trying to figure out how do I transition my K99 to the ROO and this really neat kangaroo mechanism but brings with it a lot of challenges.

There's a big career transition point from your early career, your advanced postdoc, but getting into faculty and needing to find and secure a faculty position and wanting to seek some external mentorship on what was the best way to do that, to navigate that transition. Probably some internet searches on legitimate what does K to R look like and a different kind of K to R was what I was thinking. But that's how I stumbled across this Essentials course and I think for me too there's a lot of mentorship. I was getting on my K, but in a very specific focus on the project or on my professional development in that space, and so I wanted to think about more broadly how do I transition from trainee to independent faculty and to be really thoughtful about what do I want to set up up front, what guardrails do I want in place? What do I want to be looking for as I pursue a new position and think about this R phase and the next R phase beyond this R00. Yeah, so those are like just looking for that outside guidance really.

Yeah, can you remember anything specific about that transition that you were especially uncertain about? Or like, what was it specifically about the transition from mentee to PI that you were like how do I do this?

I think there's something about going off the written map.

The rules of engagement are very clear and I think we talked about this in your course and that spoke to me too.

But I think in my experience there is a going through graduate school, there's criteria on how to succeed and what that looks like, benchmarks, and same for even the K99 postdoctoral training, that there are explicit external guidance on how to do that, and suddenly that kind of falls away and there, of course, there's still some rules that you have to follow to do the bare core components of your faculty position and job. But what that looks like, what kind of faculty position that looks like? Suddenly there wasn't a rule book, and I think that's good, that's exciting, but that was a challenge and I think that was part of the maybe looking for another rule book, like, well, what is that transition Like? How do one succeed at that? But I think, trying to get some more understanding of if there isn't a specific list of criteria on faculty success, then what is going to be guiding my actions, my decisions, how I engage in the workplace and where I'm spending my energy and time.

Yeah, I think that's such a really well.

It's such a good point that you bring up we do talk a lot about that in the course right such a good point that you bring up we do talk a lot about that in the course right About not having a roadmap anymore and that you've gotten this far in your career by checking off all those boxes and exceeding a lot of those expectations that are laid out for you. But as soon as you get to the edge of that cliff and there are no more expectations, what do you do and how do you set that up for yourself? And so that's really the work of the program and a lot of the work that you engaged in during your time in the program different ways, but, as I'm sure you recognized in the course, in my view, a lot of these skills and habits that we're building up are relevant no matter where you are in your career. They are useful to either learn for the first time or revisit and refine just to make sure that you're creating your own map and that you are figuring things out for yourself.

Definitely, and I think there's some points even from this course that are designed for the specific career stage and for this particular group of learners that I have pulled out and talked about. In some of a really nicely time. We're doing some faculty strategic planning and able to say, hey, have we thought about doing something like there's this idea of a skills matrix and kind of adapting the? Have we thought about to improve, like, enhance collaboration across faculty? What would this look like if we knew what each other's strengths are, where we needed to shore up or who we needed to consult with?

And it's been really interesting to see how these skills and some of the thinking that we work on this course does translate across the faculty spectrum and probably other areas too. It just has been this immediate application for even senior faculty thinking. Oh yeah, I don't even know if I know myself Like I am an expert in all these things and I'm not being asked to collaborate on grants or opportunities that could be research projects, because people don't know that about me. So just really interesting, that level of introspection and insight and sharing how to communicate that effectively is kind of universally helpful, not just for Earth.

Yeah, yeah, interesting. So do you. We talked a little bit about what you were seeking out, what you found challenging, kind of. At that particular career point, do you remember what it is that you hoped that you would accomplish in the program?

And I think I wonder if there was explicit learning objectives. I came in with Probably nothing so formal, I do think, trying to engage. What would it look like to take on the mindset of I am ready to write the R01, that I am a successful, whatever that might mean, that definition, that embodiment of I have the mindset to be prepared to take on this next career stage with confidence and as well as I think even that I was really hoping to, I think, learn some of the day-to-day like how do I want to be spending my time? What does this look like?

Transitioning from postdoc where there's a lot of flexibility, a lot fewer responsibilities, a lot of freedom to set final meetings, pursue different types of research agendas and write manuscripts and grants and lots of protected time that goes away when you become faculty. Suddenly there's a lot of exciting opportunities to participate in a lot of meetings, a lot of new committees and things that I could be doing and I know in myself that that's exciting and I want to say yes to things. And so, trying to figure out, come in with a strategic plan for myself of what is going to be most serving, what do I want to be spending my time on so I can approach that thoughtfully Again. So I think, just more thoughtfulness if that's the big takeaway I was hoping to get was the have the mindset to take on this new challenge.

Yeah, I think that's, you know, being thoughtful and being intentional about how you spend your time is something that we really focus on inside the program, and so where did you end up with that? How did that go?

It's ironic and, of course, the things that we know are helpful, like when you plan your time, like when you actually block your calendar, when you actually think about what am I doing that that actually is super helpful. And it's the same kind of frustration, the irony of like, well, yeah, if I actually sleep and I exercise and I eat, right, I feel better. It's the same kind of thing like that. What we know works works. It is the oh right, we have to actually do it and engage.

Yeah, isn't that so annoying.

The worst, but it's true and super helpful. And I think what I found particularly compelling from some of that because I knew some of that like yeah, if I scheduled writing time and if I commit to things, I knew that. But some of I think the nuance that I got from the course, in particular with that, was protecting the no and setting boundaries with myself, things that, oh gosh, this person really is asking can I respond to this email right away? Or they're asking for help, or this is these crises that come up that don't need to be addressed during the writing time. But I was eager to be helpful or to respond to those immediately. So the really recognizing that, holding that as space, that is a firm commitment. I wouldn't do that if I was like in an interview with Sarah Dobson, I went, oh, let me respond to this email real quick, someone needs me.

But I was definitely protecting space for other people or other types of meetings and I you know self-disclosure too. I have a three-yearold and we hold boundaries with him all the time. I'm really good at that. In other areas we would talk about the importance of firm boundaries, that our word is good as gold. We mean what we say we're going to follow through. So that was really, I think, eye-opening. To apply that same level of this is good for you. We're setting consistent boundaries to be helpful to apply that to that writing time. I think it's something I hadn't really put together and was super helpful to be protecting nose on that meeting. I can't cancel, I can't write over and when I'm in that meeting time it needs to be what I'm working on, like setting those boundaries.

Yeah, and just really honoring the commitment that you're making to yourself, right, yeah, yeah, yeah. Is there anything in the program that you learned that you didn't realize that you needed to learn?

I think I didn't realize that I needed to learn. I'm already doing the things that I was worried about not knowing how to do. How am I going to step into this role? Well, you're doing that. So I don't know if I knew that I needed to have that check in, that there isn't going to be some big checkout of like you're ready, you're doing it, like there's no external validation of that. It has to be like. I think I didn't know. I needed to recognize in myself that, yes, you are well equipped with all the strategies. Of course, different things we could be doing to do, but specific strategies or conversations I want to have with super advisors as a mentor, always new skills we can be learning in this space, but I think, coming in, you already have all the skills you need to from the core, who you are, what you're doing, your ability to succeed in this Definitely was eye-opening and I don't know if I knew I needed that.

Definitely was eye-opening and I don't know if I knew I needed that no-transcript.

So if you don't know how to do something, you know how to find ways to do that. And I hadn't applied that same logic, thinking to myself I like that that you had like the ruby slippers the whole time. You didn't know you were wearing them. Oh right, that does mean you know how to do this.

Yeah, and one of the things that we sort of try on at the very beginning of the course right, is those different identities and the ways, like, if you're in a problem area, to sort of put yourself in the position of being a scientist in your own professional life, in the way that you're navigating your career, so gathering information, maybe doing a little bit of trial and error, that kind of thing, and just kind of taking on an identity in the way that you might not think about as a way to help you solve those kinds of problems.

Think about as a way to help you solve those kinds of problems. Yeah, me phrasing it as that, this is a research question. This is a scientific question that we're going to explore. We're going to try on and hypothesize this could be helpful, reduces that risk of fear of failure, because we do research and we test things all the time, and that's comfortable. But the I'm going to try on a different identity can carry more weight to it. So the idea we're going to explore and test this and if it doesn't work, that's information.

Exactly, exactly and like we talk about all the time in the course and on this podcast, is all you can ever do is take action and gather more information and make a new decision. There is no right answer. If you wait around for the right answer, it's never going to come. You just have to decide, take action and learn from it, and I think a lot of that is taking on that identity of the scientist in your life and in your career. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what advice would you give somebody who's considering joining K to R Essentials about how to maximize their time in the program, how to make the most of their time in the program?

I think it goes back to that obvious advice of the well, the more you engage with it, the more helpful it is, and that seems like, the more you put in, the more you get out right, right.

But I do think there's something about like the willing to try on things, especially if they're outside of comfort zone or outside of things you might already be doing or things you've already checked off, like I know that doesn't work. For me, that's not helpful to be the willingness to try and experience them anyway, because even if that is that particular action isn't what you need, maybe it's going to teach you something insightful, either about yourself or about the process or what. That why isn't that helpful? That can be informative, I think too, and for our cohort, when I went through this in particular, this essentials course, there's lots of external things going on and that matters to like be very transparent.

I don't think that we can ignore context, and I found it helpful to continue to carve out space where we do this anyway. So part of this is already trying on the commitment to the work by making sure you're for me it was the committing to I'm going to still do the course, I'm still going to do the lessons, I'm still going to try on the exercises, even though it can be really chaotic to think about what is this going to mean? More big picture. So that's, I think trying things on any like the commitment starts when you start the course, and that could mean engaging in the content Even when there's distractions.

Yeah, well, I mean, let's let's talk about those distractions. That was. My next question was was to to really I mean contextualize the ability to focus while all of the chaos swirled around you. So can you tell us a little bit about what that was like for you?

Yeah, and it felt particularly interesting to be stepping into a soft money faculty position that January, having accepted a position and starting submitting documents to launch into that and putting aside some things that might have been safer or different kind of other faculty positions that could have meant a different route. And so lots of uncertainty and lots of questions like is this the right choice? Is this the best time for this work? There can be highs and lows throughout that period. I wouldn't say that there was one feeling I had, I think, lots of responding to the daily news we were getting of conflicting news and changes and what does this mean? And really a lot of uncertainty. And my decision on how to navigate some of that uncertainty was to keep doing the work until we get told otherwise. Work until we get told otherwise. I'm not going to assume my work is not going to be funded or that this isn't going to swing around and be a priority for a different administration or that there aren't other funders that are going to want to look at this. We're trying to really focus on what could I control? What are we being directly told and balancing that? My situation was really different from others who were actively told we can't fund your work. So there is this difficulty of how do you stay the course when you know that's not an option for others around you and other people that we were in our course together or colleagues I have outside of who are also navigating similar early career faculty steps. So I don't want to say that because it is.

There were moments of where this is this feel really hopeless, like the futility of how do we do this work. But for me, staying in that wasn't helpful, like the activity proactively thinking that okay. So how do we get creative? When are we going to do that? It's helpful. Who else can we put on this grant? Who maybe is going to be having some funding lapse because they have a valuable skill set and we want to make sure we can continue to work with them. So trying to think that way, creatively and strategically, about our work is fundable. Violence prevention is always going to be an important issue. People care about victims and trauma and hearing that from our leadership helps too. So how do we pivot? How do we get creative? How do we stay in the work? Because it matters if that makes sense.

Yeah, and were there any specific tools or resources or skills that you picked up in the program that you found especially helpful to navigate the moment?

in the program that you found especially helpful to navigate. The moment, I'm going to go back to some of the allowing there to be time for doom scrolling, for being concerned, allowing space for that, and then, when it comes this is the time I was going to spend writing this manuscript I'm going to lock in, I'm not going to allow that distress to be all consuming and I can no longer be productive for the day, like kind of that. And it's a probably a therapy technique too that I had this framework for like oh, like, so scheduled worrying. I'm going to have scheduled work time and then I'm going to have scheduled time where I'm not as productive, and so, if I'm finding those intrusive oh gosh, the NIH just put out something I really need to read that news blast and that can wait to the end of this half hour when I'm done with this test. So I'm going to return to, I think, some of those skills in the course about setting boundaries and about following to the work.

That I think is going to be important is driving why did I choose this money, this off money career in the first place? Like, why did I choose this faculty position? Going back to, why did I make this choice Because I could have done something else. I thought this work was important. I think this work needs to be done and that's still true regardless of what's happening outside of the rooms where we're seeing trauma patients and that work that's in front of you. It needs to be done, so, remembering why we're doing the work.

Yeah, yeah, and I just want to touch on what you said earlier about scheduled worrying and sort of bringing that therapeutic concept into it. I think that's so important as a way to remind ourselves that we are human and that we, yeah, put some constraints around it so that it's not all-consuming, but just recognize, like, of course, we're going to feel worried or fearful or whatever sort of doom feelings that we have. It's completely understandable in the circumstances to feel that way and we need to make space for that, but we also need to constrain it and make sure that we are continuing with the things that we can control and the work that we can do and the work that's meaningful to us. To, yeah, to, to keep moving forward yeah, no, definitely.

I think that having that balance is helpful, but not at all to recognize there are days when that balance isn't your we think work-life balance it isn't that perfect, equally balanced that there are some times where that something's going to take more of our attention and I think that is very legitimate and fair to me. I want to just lift up that that experience is valid as well. The I was going to write today and I can't is also important to recognize. The pushing through and saying, well, I'm going to do it anyway is how we lead to burnout, and that is you're not your best self and can't continue the work, so pouring from an empty cup all the so. I think that is rest, being sacred and productive as well. Things, themes we discussed, certainly in the course, if not outright tenets of lessons we practiced, I think are important to keep in mind.

Yeah, and that, to me, is a different facet of the way that we talk about working during your best hours and knowing when you're at your best and when you can be most efficient with your writing. But a different facet of that is just recognizing like some days, even your best laid plans just don't work out and you just don't require that same level of intense focus or deep thinking. You can still move the ball forward on other areas that don't require that of you, if you just don't have the capacity for it, and that is completely understandable and something to try to, you know, build into those schedules. Definitely, yeah, caitlin, is there anything else you want to talk about before we wrap up today?

I was thinking. The only other thing that has really continued to stick with me from this course is the importance of, uh, recognizing our wins and especially when things are, it's really easy to focus on the negative. Contextually, globally, there's a lot like that and we need to again the duality of holding space for that. We should focus on that and talk about it, and I think that can mean, I mean, sometimes, that we really downplay the wins we have if we do this all the time, and even more so when well gosh, is this really when that important, given all everything else that's going on? And it is and this was brought up to me, I think, not only thinking about it resonating on this. How do I continue to do this?

And I have a new team member who's working with us and got his very first publication ever and it was easy, oh yeah, great. So we got that accepted, let's go ahead and move on. I'm already thinking and there was this pause, we had this meeting. He's like isn't that so great? I just was so excited to see that email come through. And did you go out and celebrate? I got dinner with my parents. Just this very clear recognition of that is worth celebrating.

Yes is worth celebrating. Yes, and I think just continuing to like yes, we should celebrate these wins they do matter, and that is hard to do, and a good reminder like whether it takes external reminders and continuing to surround ourselves with people who will also celebrate those wins with us, um, and allow space for sharing those wins is huge. So I think trying to continue to do that practice because it's easy to fall back into what's the next thing or what's more important but I think celebration of our even big wins, small wins, is huge, and so I'm glad that we did as a group together in this course.

Yeah, that's such a great insight it is. You know, it's the plight of all high achievers to just quickly move on to the next thing you know, outside of the context of our community, and to build in ways, either individually or collectively with your lab or your colleagues, to celebrate those wins. And, of course, also that two things can be true that there's a lot of upheaval, a lot of terrible things happening in the world, and also it's important to celebrate and acknowledge when good things happen, because that's what allows us to keep going Good. Well, what a great way to wrap up. Thank you so much, caitlin, for being here today, for sharing your experience inside the program and, of course, please keep in touch. Let us know how you're doing, how the work is progressing, and thank you again. Yeah, absolutely Thank you for having me.

Thanks for listening to this episode of Significant Impact from K Award to your first big R01. If you want to dig deeper into what we learned today and move a significant step closer to a smooth K-to-R transition, visit sarahdobsonco slash pod and check out all the free stuff we have to help you do just that. Don't forget to subscribe to the show to make sure you hear new episodes as soon as they're released, and if today's episode made you think of a colleague or a friend, please tell them about it. Tune in next time and thanks again for listening. Thank you.